M44/Carbine; Mini-14 Type; Model 77; RWS Rifles; S Misc Rifles; Saiga Rifles. 7677 Winchester Model 94AE, 30-30, NRA limited to 500, engraved Deer on receiver Adjustable rear s Winchester - Model 70, Target Model, .243 Winchester. in the Big Bore Model 94. Id submit that for most shooters and hunters, cartridges like the .40 S&W and the 10mm Auto are the first things that come to mind when they think of semi-automatic .40 caliber cartridges. Yet, that bore diameter produces some of the best hunting cartridges available. The .30-30 offers more power with certain loads, better long-range performance, and soft recoil. 26" barrels with F A near flawless vintage Voere Nato Imperial control round feed Mauser bolt action made in Austria. 200-grain bullet to almost 2500 f.p.s. sam be yourself net worth; used robalo boats for sale by owner; nolin lake ponderosa homes for sale; neville staple wife; university of miami pay grade scale c111 Please email us if you have questions about any of our product listings. Cartridges are (usually) widely available and dont cost more than the .350 Legend. You can never lead if you always follow; the other cartridges were designed to chase Winchesters success, while the .35 Rem. Would certainly make things easier, from a tooling standpoint. as a way to boost the power of the Model 94 lever-action rifle. Save your pennies and hold out for the M1 Carbine then save your pennies and start stocking away ammo and magazines. The .35 Rem. Sadly, I cant find a single major gunmaker chambering this cartridge today. from a 20 inch rifle barrel, which is lower than any .30-30 load published in the Winchester ammo catalog. Mag. I reload for both the 351 and 401 win sl, they do quite well, and are a hoot to shoot. The .356 Win. When Winchester was asked by Ordnance to develop a round for a new echelon weapon to complement the .45 cal 1911 handgun, their engineers fell back to the basic design of these rounds, adapting the .32 WSL into what was called in development the .30 SL, virtually identical to todays .30 Carbine. WINCHESTER 07 351 SL 5RD Magazine; ORIGIN USA CALIBER .351 SL WEIGHT 7.75 LBS. However, the calibers available in the Model 1905, the .32 Self Loading (.32 SL) and the .35 Self Loading (.35 SL), were realistically pretty underpowered for satisfactory use on big game. Upon its release, the Legend was marketed as a light-recoiling cartridge, and the .30-30 is also well-known as a good option for the recoil-sensitive. Javascript is required. I'm kind of surprised the .351 wasn't made originally to use .357 bullets, since that bore size had already been established by that point. Its too bad that no other companies picked up the 32 WSL, 35 WSL, 351WSL and 401 WSL . Versatility The .351 is a great urban defense cartridge, but ammo supplies are extremely limited, and so is magazine capacity. The US .30 cal M1 Carbine is one of the most important developments in the personal defense weapon story, being one of the very first* intermediate calibers to be adopted as standard issue by a nation, and arguably the first purpose-designed PDW caliber in history. . Nominally they weighed 180 grains, were usually jacketed softpoints and were propelled from the 20-inch barrel of the Model 1907 at about 1,800 fps. 30 Carbine vs 5.56: Beloved Military Rounds | The Daily Bell was also the only cartridge of that original Remington family that was based on a different parent case. The decision for which round is better for a given application should be made with complete information, and this article simply serves as a comparative guide, not the final say. I did read a article that said in the 1920s, the military tried experimented using a Remington model 1908 in 25 Remington and soldiers liked shooting it as compared to bolt action 30-06. I have one, and I like it a lot. "[8], U.S. Army specifications for the new cartridge mandated the caliber to be greater than .27, with an effective range of 300 yards or more, and a midrange trajectory ordinate of 18 inches (460mm) or less at 300 yards. This understandably led to mistakes and confusion among the buying public regarding the proper ammunition for the rifle and hampered sales of what should have been a very popular rifle. On those gray, moody November days when I am feeling blue I take my Remington Model 141 pump-action rifle in .35 Rem. Mag. Does anyone know if any gunsmith ever converted a 30 Carbine to 32 WSL? WINCHESTER 06 22 S,L,LR. To put this into perspective, a Boeing 737 commercial airliner travels at a cruising speed of 600 mph, or 880 fps. This gun has a story. These ballistics were far better than the .351 WSL and even put it slightly above the .35 Remington in terms of kinetic energy. The 35 WSL fired a 180 gr SP at 1390 fps, this duplicated the 38-40 ballistics. Mossberg .22 LR models 340 340A 340B 340M 342 342K 344 344K 346K 346B 350 350K 351 352 352K 353 Rifl Winchester mod. Other articles said reloaders would resize 41 Magnum bullets (.410), down to .406 to use in the 401 WSL. Made from premium-grade, vegetable-tanned leather, the Burdette Custom Holsters Detective SA-35 holster is a custom outside-the-waistband (OWB) model for the Springfield Armory SA-35 semi-automatic pistol. That load actually produced 2825 f.p.s. Standard government-issue rounds reach over 1,500ft/s (460m/s), with factory loads, and handloads producing similar velocities or tuned for more efficient short-barrel performance without excessive blast. Ruger's fine New Model Blackhawk extends the .30 Carbine cartridge's versatility. .351 Winchester Self-Loading - Wikipedia As of this writing, five of Midways .350 Legend options are in stock while the company reports having zero .30-30 cartridges available. Townsend Whelen wrote back 100 years ago that the 32 WSL and 35 WSL were good deer cartridges for their ranges. all were more powerful-and may have been excellent hunting cartridges-but they are gone; rejected by the shooting public and banished to the junk heap of obsolescence. This 180-grain load from Federal drops 9.4 inches at 200 yards and 34.1 inches at 300 yards. PISTOL GRIP, SPLINTER FORE END, PISTOL GRIP, SPLINTER FORE END, DOUBLE TRIGGERS, EXTRACTOR. I have one, of course, and it is fun to shoot, but I would never use it on a serious big-game hunt. Classified Ad (1000+), Search Full Text of Listings Ruger made a few bolt-actions some years back, and Remington made rifles in the 700 Classic line, but they are long gone. is still not burning up the sales records, so maybe ahead of its time is the wrong description. By comparison, the .30-06 M2 cartridge for M1 Garand rifle fired a ball bullet weighing 152 grains (9.8 g) at a muzzle velocity of 2,805ft/s (855m/s) and 2,655ftlbf (3,600 joules) of muzzle energy. In most Caliber Battles, one cartridge clearly offers more power and velocity across a range of loads and bullet weights. The .351 WSL did grab a bit of fame, first as a popular rifle for prison guards and then as one of the rifles used to punch a lot of holes in Bonnie and Clydes automobile (although that accolade is in question). Own and shoot both. However, the .401 Winchester Self-Loading, which was itself proceeded by the .351 Winchester Self-Loading, and the Winchester Model 1907 and 1910 rifles that fired those cartridges, all filled those roles many decades before anyone ever heard of the 10mm Auto,the AR-15, or the Ruger Mini-14. It is built on an aluminum- NO NYC, CT buyers please send us FFL or State Permit. .243 Winchester vs .30 M1 Carbine Ammo Comparison - Ballistics Info The .30 Carbine is so weird in part because its descended from an innovative and influential but little-known family of rounds developed by Winchester in the early 1900s. It credits the .350 Legend with 903 ft. lbs. Winchester BismuthReview: Your Complete Guide, Best Hunting Rifle Slings Ultimate Guide [2023], 25-06 vs 30-06 Springfield Review & Comparison, 6.5 Grendel vs 300 Blackout Review & Comparison, 11 Reasons The Leupold VX-6HD Is An Outstanding Hunting Scope, 450 Bushmaster vs 45-70 Review & Comparison, 28 Nosler vs 300 Win Mag Review & Comparison, Best 22 Hornet Ammo For Hunting Coyotes, Bobcats, & Other Varmints, 15 Best African Hunting Books For When Youre Dreaming Of Being On Safari[2023], Best 350 Legend Ammo For Hunting Deer, Hogs, Bear, & Other Game, Best 6.8 Western Rifles for Hunting Ultimate Guide [2023]. While the American mainstream wont accept the .35, they are not unloved. Since .22 caliber cartridges of that time period were not loaded to uniform ballistics, Winchester specifically developed the .22 Automatic Winchester Rimfire cartridge for reliable functioning in the Model 1903 rifle. Winchester Rifles - Semi-Auto Pre-War for sale - Guns International With overall 50% blue mixing to dark brown patina. This stumpy little cartridge was introduced to the hunting public in 1908 and is the only surviving member of the early class of Remington rimless cartridges. Neither Winchester cartridge was truly suitable for anything larger than small deer, and that might have been pushing it. This was about as powerful as the original .30-30 Winchester load of a 160 grain bullet at 1,970 feet per second (1,379 ft-lbs of energy) and quite a bit more powerful than a .357 Magnum load. It can be found, and reloading it should not be a problem. The .223's 200 yard energy is given as 603 ft. Re: Question for the experts: M1 Carbine vs. Winchester .351. They have almost all abandoned the cartridge. Worked on one the other day for a young kid. Still, the .30 Carbine is a round that has taken considerable criticism for its lack of performance, so its worthwhile to take a look at exactly how it does in comparison to other rounds used for the same purpose: Here we see pretty much exactly what wed expect: A round that starts out quite admirably thanks to its goodvelocity and energy, but which tends to underperform at range due to its dumpy ballistic coefficient. Neither cartridge produces stiff recoil. Its safe to say that your local sporting goods store is more likely to stock the .30-30 Winchester than the .350 Legend. The result was the M1 carbine.[7]. The .351 Winchester fired the same 180 grain bullet as the .35 SL, but at a considerably higher velocity of 1,850 feet per second (1,368 ft-lbs of muzzle energy). For the .30-30, however, the company offers multiple 150- and 170-grain loads as well as a 125-grain jacketed hollow point and a 170-grain Nosler partition that the company bills as ideal for elk. Smooth handsome gun with fine wood to metal fit and overall light handling marks, wi WINCHESTER 1910 401. Finally, Winchester had developed an autoloader powerful enough to truly be used on North American big game. Joined: Dec 2008. In that year, the .308 Winchester replaced the .30-06 Springfield in American military arsenals, and the NATO version of the Winchester, the 7.62x51mm, is still in service around the world. 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They are still around, although finding a pristine example will be tough. It was introduced in the bolt-action Model 70 in which it was trustworthy, but boring. Plainfield Machine produced M1 carbines from 1960 to 1977, when they were bought out by Iver Johnson Corp, who has manufactured them at least until a 50th anniversary model in 1993. In 1968 the 600 Magnum was replaced by the Model 660 Magnum, which featured a 20-inch barrel, but it was never a big seller, and Remington dropped the rifles. The muzzle velocity was stated to be 1850 fps and the muzzle energy 1370 ft. lbs. Itsnodawayitustabe Registered Joined Apr 12, 2016 I wonder if any gunsmith has made a AR 15 in 351 WSL? GI#: 102196509. After reading about the Winchester self loaders, I decided to look online to get more information and see what I could find out, It seems like most writers complain about the Winchester self loaders action, but this was a new product. .35 Remington: Ultimate Guide To What You Need To Know The 401 WSL would seem to have been a good choice for a large caliber AR 15, but they came out with the 450 Bushmaster instead. is a wonderful cartridge, but nobody buys them. Save your pennies and hold out for the M1 Carbinethen save your pennies and start stocking away ammo and magazines. That being said,some good did come out of the money and time spent on the development of the Model 1905 and the accompanying cartridges that would help the company in the future. Even so, the Model 1903 rifle was fairly popular and sold approximately 120,000 examples over a production life of 33 years. is on the threatened list, this one is on a path to extinction. The two really dont compare. The M1 Carbine is VERY reliable, sufficiently accurate for most urban needs, and is feather light. Early Semi-Automatics: Winchester's First Self-Loading Rifles Lots of people seem to enjoy beating their head against a wall. The .30 Carbine, for all practical purposes, is a scaled-down Winchester .351 SL. Winchester offered .351 WSL factory loads loaded with 180 grain jacketed soft point (JSP), round nose bullets. Gun #: 943226118 . I read back in the 1980s a couple of gunsmith were doing conversation of 30 Carbine rifles to 45 Win. Probably over half the Model 1907 and 1910 rifles Ive examined over the years have a cracked forearm. The 351 WSL looks like a somewhat larger version of the 30 Carbine round, although the 351 is more powerful. Army Ordnance Major Rene Studler persuaded Winchester that the Winchester M2 .30-06 rifle, a design started by Ed Browning and perfected by Winchester engineers including Marshall "Carbine" Williams, could be scaled down for the .30 Carbine cartridge. 1 - Existing barrel making equipment could be made use of. It feels like you get an initial kick when the gun goes off, which is then followed immediately by even harder hit when the heavy movable actions parts slam to the rear of the rifle. The first trigger housing used with an M1 Carbine was a modified Winchester M1907 trigger housing used in Winchester's first prototype submission to the Ordnance "light rifle" trials in August 1941. The first 100,000 cartridges manufactured were headstamped ".30 SL" (for "self-loading"). In the years since, the .35 Rem. A postwar U.S. Army evaluation reported that "[t]here are practically no data bearing on the accuracy of the carbine at ranges in excess of 50 yards. Dear Socialists: I have no money for you. I have all the calibers but short the 401 s and the 22 autos ,can you reload or sell a dox of each. Even the Standard gas operated semi auto rifle didnt sell well. Upon firing, the breechblock is delayed in its opening by its weight and spring pressure until the rising chamber pressure overcomes the inertia of the bolt. These cartridges are remarkably similar from a ballistics standpoint, but the .30-30s slightly better long-distance performance gives it the edge in this category. Winchester introduced the .351 SL in the Winchester Model 1907 self-loading rifle as a replacement for the Winchester Model 1905 and the .35 SL. Another $300. SMOOTH PATINA METAL. Ruger briefly chambered the M77 rifle in .35 Whelen. What is the going price of an original box of 351 ammo. As illustrated in the chart, .30 M1 Carbine rounds - on average - achieve a velocity of about 1990 feet per second (fps) while .30-30 Winchester rounds travel at a velocity of 2370 fps. plowed fresh ground. It is a light rifle round[2][3][4][5] designed to be fired from the M1 carbine's 18-inch (458mm) barrel. He became convinced that faster, flatter-shooting cartridges would take game more reliably, and the resulting line of Weatherby Magnum cartridges has been doing just that since he founded Weatherby in 1945. His was in pretty good shape. Winchester and Hornady both offer 200-grain loads at 2475 f.p.s. 80% BLUE. offered the performance level of the .358 Win. This design allowed the use of a simple blowback action, shared between the Winchester 1905, 1907, and 1910 rifles. Question for the experts: M1 Carbine vs. Winchester .351, Re: Question for the experts: M1 Carbine vs. Winchester .351, Powered by UBB.threads PHP Forum Software 7.7.5. .30 Carbine Combo - Shooting Times The 357 Magnum fired a 158 gr SP at 1240 fps. Question for the experts: M1 Carbine vs. Winchester .351 My pick by far is the 30 carbine for all the previous listed reasons. Yeah. you can refer to it as "self loading" instead of semi auto and still have that "special feeling". Thanks for your support. Classic Police Self-Loaders: Model 8 Versus Model 1907 [6] But for the handloader who has taken the time to replace the recoil spring and buffer in the Winchester Model 1907, the .351 SL can be loaded to its original velocities. Auction (19) 95% BARRELS, 85% RECEIVER AND N WINCHESTER 1400 20GA 28 MOD. Winchester offered .351 WSL factory loads loaded with 180-grain jacketed soft point round nose bullets. All that being said, if one were interested in hunting with a very unique rifle that you would be very unlikely to encounter in the woods in the hands of another hunter, the Winchester Model 1907 and Model 1910 autoloaders in .351 Winchester or .401 Winchester would be a great choice. With a 10 mph crosswind, the bullet shifts 7.4 inches and 17.8 inches at those distances, respectively. was designed for the American market, but sadly no American riflemaker ever chambered the cartridge in a cataloged gun. In 1958, the short-lived J. Kimball Arms Co. produced a .30 Carbine caliber pistol that closely resembled a slightly scaled-up High Standard Field King .22 target pistol. If you get a GI M1 carbine (only ones worth considering) then youll have a REAL military weapon. For hunting, it is considered a small-to-medium-game cartridge. 351 winchester vs 35 remington - look.perfil.com In a now-famous story, Roy Weatherby launched his wildcatting career after he lost a wounded deer on his first hunt in 1942. Heavy, slow, not very accuate, and now days ammo is next to impossible to find. Most have had an active life in the woods earning their keep, not being just stored away in the closet. Caliber Battle: .30-30 Win. vs. .350 Legend | MeatEater Hunting The M1 Carbine is VERY reliable, sufficiently accurate for most urban needs, and is feather light. ARMSCORs RIA 5.0 ST semi-automatic 9 mm Luger pistol represents the companys first handgun to be designed and manufactured here in the United States. crying, My kingdom for a rifle.. Single trigger 14.25 LOP with Winchester red recoil pad. But in 2003 Remington decided to attempt a resurrection. This is an Oviedo 1916 Spanish mauser chambered in .308 Winchester. Ill bet its been awhile since those cartridges have been seen in a hunting camp. By experience, they would come to handle it semiautomatically, but it took prolonged battle hardening to bring about this adjustment in the human equation. Its not a long-range powerhouse by any means, but it can be loaded with more aerodynamic .30-caliber bullets that offer higher ballistic coefficients (BC). Most ammunition makers have a 200-grain load, and Remington also has a 150-grain load with a muzzle velocity of 2300 f.p.s. As the winner of two out of three categories, the .30-30 Winchester deserves the overall nod. Back in the day, shooters were just transitioning from black powder to smokeless powder. Mag.-all with a bigger, heavier bullet that will punch a bigger hole and penetrate deeper. The following ammunition cartridge ballistics information and chart can be used to approximately compare .30 M1 Carbine vs .30-30 Winchester ammo rounds. Two absolutely worthless cartridges, 30 cal M-1 carbine and the .351 have provided the insightful highway for some decent rounds. The 10mm Auto semi auto pistols is being used to hunt deer and wild hogs, and it equals the 35 WSL ballistics. I can remember reading that years ago in hunting magazines that the Model 1910 was popular in Alaska, that even Barnes Bullets made .406 bullets for reloading the 401 WSL. The .351 SL cartridge used an unusual bullet diameter of .351 instead of the .357 or .358 more commonly used in .35-caliber rifle cartridges. That suggests the difference, at least in part, is due to the bullet. Shootability From my collection Winchester 1894. One of the oldest and most popular cartridges of all time, the .30-30 Winchester, was released in 1895 and has been bringing down all manner of game ever since. EARLY 3 DIGIT SERIAL NUMBER 904. This is a bolt action rifle with a 5round internal magazine and sports a 22 blued steel barrel with visible rif WINCHESTER 1873 MUSKET 44-40 30. However, as a bottleneck cartridge, the .30-30 has a slight advantage at longer ranges. [6], A number of handguns have been chambered for .30 Carbine ammunition. But do you know the real-world differences between a standard cartridge and a Weatherby Sign in to access your profile, save content and more. zero-we see that contrary to popular belief, a 35-caliber can be a long-range cartridge. Winchester only sold about 29,000 Model 1905 rifles from 1905 to 1923. That higher BC allows the .30-30 to maintain a flatter trajectory and buck the wind more effectively. This suggests that in normal times, the .30-30 is easier to find. were to go head to head with the .25-35 Win.,. It shoots well and is light and easy to carry while hunting. and the 6.5 mm Rem. WITH BAYONET. Mag.They have almost identical case capacity, but the .358 Norma Mag. Another comparison is a .357 Magnum cartridge fired from an 18" rifle barrel, which has a muzzle velocity range from about 1,7182,092ft/s (524638m/s) with energies at 7201,215ftlbf (9761,647J) for a 110gr (7.1g) bullet at the low end and a 125gr (8.1g) bullet on the high end.[11]. Both clock in around 9 foot-pounds of energy, about half as much as a .308 Winchester. This gun is in excellent condition in its orignal hardcase with keys. It was predictable that the .356 Win. Even the military wouldnt use semi or full auto ( hand held) fearing soldiers would shoot too much ammo. MADE IN 1933. One can almost hear the echoes of Norma Mag. You want to look for a Marlin Camp Carbine in 9mm. Due to its blowback action, the rifle kicks like a mule. Area Code: 715. This new model featured two new cartridges, the .350 Rem. . Copyright 2023 National Rifle Association, Women On Target Instructional Shooting Clinics, Volunteer At The Great American Outdoor Show, Marion P. Hammer Women Of Distinction Award, Women's Wildlife Management / Conservation Scholarship, National Youth Shooting Sports Cooperative Program, Reloading Centerfire Ammunition: Tips For Getting Started, Shooting and Loading the 6.8x43 mm Rem. Many have complained about the cartridges themselves saying that they were way under powered and useless and only good for squirrels to coyotes, they must be talking about the 22LR. The .358 Win. Winchester - Model 70, Target Model, .243 Winchester. In todays post, my dad will go over the history of the .401 and .351 Winchester Self-Loading cartridges in detail and cover why they were initially developed and why they eventually fell by the wayside. up to 0.358 inches and dubbed it the poor mans magnum.. If youd like to read some of the other posts my father has written for this blog, visit the links below: The .219 Zipper: A Good Cartridge That Didnt Quite Pan Out, One Mans Attempt At Explaining Hunting To Non-Hunters, 405 Winchester: Roosevelts Medicine Gun For Lions.

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